Monica Lim: Battling Career Boredom

Show Notes

Guest:

Monica Lim

Sponsor:

Links and show notes:

Transcript

Monica Lim: I think part of me like, wow, it's, it's not like I suddenly have ADHD. I think what, like with school, with work, it was not so bad, but like with parenting, oh my god. I think I had this idea of myself, as you know, like, I want to be this like Montessori kind of mom, like and then all of those things just, just really fell apart with me, like with parenting

Jesse: Hey, my name is Jesse J. Anderson, host of the ADHD Nerds podcast. The show where we talk about living with ADHD, and have some fun along the way.

Jesse: This is episode 11, and today I'm talking with my friend, Monica Lim.

Jesse: Monica is a project manager and creator based in Seoul who currently leads business development in Korea for LottieFiles, a community platform for creating motion graphics. Among other things, she's also worked as a career and English coach, helping professionals improve their communication skills and accelerate their careers.

Jesse: But first I'd like to thank our sponsor, Llama Life. Say goodbye to never-ending lists and hello to daily bliss. Llama Life is a perfect tool for managing time boxed working sessions. You can whiz through your monstrous to do list, finish your work on time, and get the things done that you said you would do. To get your free trial, go to adhdnerds.com/llama that's L L A M A and get started today. And you can save 20% by using the coupon code JESSELLAMA20. That's J E S S E L L A M A 2 0. Now let's get to the show.

Jesse: Monica. It is great to have you here.

Monica Lim: Thank you for having me and for your patience.

Jesse: Yeah, we finally, finally figure out the schedule. Yeah, so I always love to start the show kind of hearing your background with ADHD. What did you maybe notice growing up that maybe you thought there was something, or maybe you didn't know?

Jesse: And then how did you eventually kind of find out that, oh, this is ADHD and what, yeah, what has that meant for your life?

Monica Lim: So I had heard about ADHD and like, just by definition and I never saw myself even close to that, like territory, cuz like I think growing up, I was a really, really good student. I loved studying. Like nobody told me I had to do my homework. I would just be studying a lot or like into books and I could like really focus.

Monica Lim: I could be like five hours straight, you know, like doing something homework or like studying for tests? Um, so like growing up, I really don't remember like any hint of oh, Monica's ADHD. Or, uh, like, I, I, like, I associated ADHD with like fidgeting or like just not being able to stay still. And I was a pretty kind of like quiet, uh, girl, just, you know, onto to my things.

Monica Lim: So yeah, growing up, it was pretty, um, like no signs of anything out the typical path.

Jesse: Right. So when, when did that change?

Monica Lim: I think for me, like, it really was, pretty recently, like a huge breakthrough for me was I just kept getting bored at work. Like I just switching jobs, like, you know. Oh, this is not for me. Like I would just have, sudden sort of new career aspirations or interests. And I think that was like, I just always felt restless.

Monica Lim: Which I didn't, which I didn't notice going through like school. I did like my Bachelors, I did my Masters and maybe, uh, you have like the, the semesters you have like classes. So, you know, like before you're about to get bored, there's a new semester, new students, new classmates. But that, that's kind of like how I interpret, like, why didn't I notice this before?

Monica Lim: So I think it was always there, but like there were, uh, I was kind of motivated. Always, too cuz I, there was a lot of new and new challenges, newness to my academic sort of career. But, um, my background is in civil engineering. I, I studied civil engineering and I worked as a project manager in construction.

Monica Lim: So I did like large commercial projects. And some of these can go for like over 18 months. It could be three years long. And it was it just after about like six months or about a year. Like I would just get that itch. Oh, like this is kinda like, you know, boring or like it's very repetitive and I would not find sort of like new challenges.

Monica Lim: And I had this like, opportunity to teach at a university and I was like, oh, this like, it's like, like the, the, the checks, you know, like, oh, super interesting, exciting, new.

Jesse: Mm-hmm mm-hmm

Monica Lim: So I was okay. I'm in. And whenever, like I had those kind of opportunities come up, um, quite often. So, you know, I was teaching about after a year.

Monica Lim: Oh. Like, I don't like my coworkers. Like, I don't know if this is for me, like, and then going back to corporate. And that's how I worked in the States after like, I, I studied in the, in the States, I worked, in Chicago for, for about two years. I went back to my school in Urbana-Champagne. And then I got bored and I was looking for a job.

Monica Lim: And that's how sort of, I kind of like landed back in South Korea, which is like, you know, where I'm from, uh, originally. So, yeah, like just, just jumping off career. And I went back, it was going back and forth from like my, my actual professional career. And then like, something very different from my career.

Monica Lim: So I was like, construction, like project management, and then teaching, and then back to project management. And after I got married about like, I don't know, 10 years ago, I just felt like I had more. , you know, I was just getting bored at my job at my corporate job. And I was like, oh, you know, like I'm still young.

Monica Lim: And like, I just played that like repertoire, like I'm young, I should figure out what I want to do now, not later. You know, I can take a job. I could always go back to work. And that's how, like, I just really, yeah, like I just quit my job and, and I was like, okay, what should I do? What should I do?

Monica Lim: And back then, it was very popular to like, you know, for somebody coming from abroad, uh, a very easy sort of side job was to teach English this was like back in 2013. So, oh, again, like, oh, like sounds interesting. Like I love meeting people like, and like, you know, that, that cycle. So I was teaching and then like getting bored and.

Monica Lim: Maybe about three years ago, I was like, okay. There's there's like something strange here. Like my husband was like, oh, Monica, again. You're like bored again. Like you're switching jobs again. And there was this, this one, uh, in 2000 back in 2019, this is like pre COVID. One of my, uh, my, and I was coaching, uh, adults for like English and one of my clients worked at a modeling agency.

Monica Lim: So I had this like really super random opportunity to work, uh, for a fashion week in Korea. So my job was to like, basically, okay, we have like a lot of editors from like Vogue magazine, like all these big names that I like I had heard, um, you know, like we have to make sure that they go to their shows.

Monica Lim: They go in time, we check attendance, we make sure we usher them. And like, it was like the first time I'm doing this, but it just sounded super exciting, super new. And I was like, okay, I'm in. And this is like March of 2019. And like fashion shows can be a whole like, it's so they can be so intense and so crazy.

Monica Lim: But, um, I was so good at it. Like, there are a million parts. There are like million things moving. There're like, there's so many things going on. Like again, like, I, I could see people panicking, but, uh, somehow it was like my first time doing it. Like, I just, just, just kind of like knew exactly like what I was supposed to do, how to control all those million parts. Like I was just like, kind of killing it, right? Like I'm like I'm really good at this.

Jesse: Was it almost like crisis management? Like things were kind of a little bit chaotic?

Monica Lim: Kind of, but like almost, yeah, like super chaotic, but like, I was kind of like really flowing in the middle of the chaos and,

Jesse: I love the chaos.

Monica Lim: Um, yeah, and like, I, I knew like maybe it's because those are my background.

Monica Lim: Like I. I'm a project manager, like I was in construction. So just like all this like sequence of things that need to happen and like, you know, like a sense of what needs to get done before, like what could happen, like predicting and acting upon that. And, um, so. Like, it was like, they gave me this very, very tiny job, but I could, like, I just really, really took ownership.

Monica Lim: And like, I came up with like systems on like how to create attendance, know, plans. Like I just went all out and I was like, I could, I was like until like 2:00 AM in the morning, like planning sheets, and like, like nobody told me what to do, but I knew what to do. And after that show. I was like, wow, this was like really awesome.

Monica Lim: Like I love this type of work and I had like other opportunities to do that. Right. But, um, and that's when I noticed, like, you know, like, I love this like really intense, like so many things going on. I love figuring things out and then I'll get bored right. Of other, you know, like, so for fashion shows, um, I, I didn't get bored yet, cuz like they're like so crazy, right?

Monica Lim: Like every time is crazy thing. And then it ends in like two weeks max it's over. Uh, it's not like a two year thing. Like, so there's really no time to get bored. And that's, that's why, like, I love fashion shows, but they're also so intense. And, um, so that's when, like I experienced something so intense that I, around me, nobody else I felt like could do very well, or like I was really kind of uniquely designed or shaped for this.

Monica Lim: Uh, and I would just get really bored. So I noticed that like, oh, I'm, I'm a little bit different. Like there there's something here that I can handle that other people don't seem to do just as well. and that combination, like back in two 19, and then like, just again, like hopping from jobs and getting bored.

Monica Lim: And, and I think it was like 2000, like 20, like last year. Like I, uh, I discovered this crazy world of like courses of learning of like connecting with people. Like it was so stimulating for me, like meeting people, like, uh, reaching out to some people like having those people reach back to me like, uh, and it was so.

Monica Lim: I don't know, just, just very, very like high dopamine, high energy, like just, just very intense. And I think that's when, um, yeah, there were like the there's like, okay, like this is, and then I'm looking at my husband super neurotypical. Like it's like kind of typical guy.

Monica Lim: And I like none of the things that I was experiencing, I felt like he could sort of relay, like we were not on the same page in terms of like experiences and our brains were working. and then like people that I follow, like Marie Poulin, even like you, just talking about ADHD and, uh, Marie Poulin she back into like, probably I learned about her through YouTube in 2000, like maybe 20, like right at start of like COVID,

Monica Lim: And like, I'm like, she's my twin sister.

Monica Lim: She's like my, I was like, how can this person total stranger, like everything she says, like how she, like, she was like speaking out loud, explaining what her, like, how her brain was, was working. And it was exactly how, like, I, like my brand was working. so I like, I really followed her. uh, just, just the things that she was doing and how she was doing it, like really resonated with me, like really applied to me and really worked for me.

Monica Lim: So, um, you know, like I, I took her course notion mastery, which is like a super great course. Lots of people that I feel like have ADHD in that course. And even like notion, like I love notion so much, um, just how I was like instantly connected and instantly loving notion. I felt, And again, like some other people, like this is so easy, like I'm like, this is like so intuitive.

Monica Lim: It's like, you know, how can like people not get it? But I saw a lot of people that... I just look at there's something different about me, right. so a couple clues, but again, I'm still like resisting, like me ADHD. Like I can work on something for like eight hours. Like, I don't need food, I don't need water, like I can, I can go straight. Like I don't, I don't, I don't struggle with focus.

Jesse: I did the exact same thing when my wife was talking with her friend about ADHD and she sort of brought it to me. I basically said like, there's no way that I can have ADHD. Cause I can spend hours focusing on the things I'm interested in. And it's like, yeah. Then I found out about hyperfocus and I was like, oh, oh, that really kind of fits my situation.

Monica Lim: And I, I think I, I, I may have learned about hyper focused from you, like, from like your, like you had the five pillars

Monica Lim: You know, like I can really focus, in a way, like, it makes me proud. Like I was like, wow, like I, like, I did this. And, uh, I didn't realize that it was a trait sort of like specific or like common in, in people with ADHD.

Monica Lim: So I'm like gathering clues. And I think the biggest thing was I was so stimulated that like, my brain just became so loud, like, I think like my brain just did, like, it was just really loud all day long. And. Of course I'm like, oh, you know, like everybody, like, yeah. You know, like I I'm, I'm on Twitter.

Monica Lim: Like I'm learning a lot of things. This is totally normal. Probably a lot of people like are going through the same thing. And, uh, it was just getting really bad. Like just, I just wanted my brain quiet a little bit, but it just like like a faucet. Like, it was just, just. waterfall of stuff like ideas, connections, like it was just, just talking to me like nonstop.

Monica Lim: and just somebody like has to just, oh Monica, like, you know, like maybe you should look into this and like, you know, I have ADHD, like a friend of mine that had ADHD. I was like, you know, uh, I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna tell you, but like, I think I always knew that you had ADHD. I'm what? Um, And I, I that's when, around the same time, like, you know, I teach like even Marie Poulin was like, oh, I was recently diagnosed and blah, blah, blah.

Monica Lim: And I'm like, oh, maybe I, I. That is it, it felt like a natural step to, to like, see if like, what kind of, you know, like, do I have ADHD? Like, what does look like for me? And finally went to see a doctor and like the doctor also in like going through like childhood and like, I was like, oh miss, I don't you have ADHD.

Monica Lim: And I'm um, yeah, cuz I, and I think it's because I was a student, like, Almost a straight a student, like I love studying. And, um, and I have my sort of ideas of that. Like I think getting good grades was sort of a game for me. Like, I don't remember anything I studied. Like I don't, remember.

Monica Lim: I don't remember anything from my classes. It's so sad. Like I have A's and, but I think for me was like the, the game and the rush of. Of getting that difficult problem. Nobody can get, but me, like, know, like solving that thing. And then that was very, very kind of motivating for me,

Monica Lim: think. Um,

Jesse: I, I love that feeling solving something. No one else can solve that is, oh yeah. Gimme that problem. That's what I

Monica Lim: exactly. So like there would be exams where like, oh, there's one person in this class who solved this problem. oh, Monica, like, you Like I mean, I don't even know that problem. I don't even know like how I solved it, but like just, I think I had like the, the, the, like the good goals to have, get good grades, but so much to really learn.

Monica Lim: Um, at least like, you know, for me, so long story and like wrapping it up. Like, I finally get my like noses, like probably earlier this year, LA end of last year. And, uh, it's been like, oh, my god. Like, it's been a whole lot of, uh, wow. Like, you know, because I've been reading or like studying or, and just really understanding how there are like so many ramifications.

Monica Lim: There are like so many things that I do. And I see a lot of like these traits, just like little signs and clues, and bread crumbs, right, of like ADHD signs. And, I don't know, like so many mistakes, I've made so many bad decisions I've made so many things that like, could have been so different today,

Monica Lim: had I known I had ADHD. And like, oh, you know, Monica, like you, this is like, you're, you're rushing into this. Or, um, I could have . Saved a lot of heartache and a lot of bad decisions. Had I known, I think. That I

Monica Lim: had ADHD.

Jesse: Yeah. I think when a lot of people, when they get diagnosed, uh, I know I went through this. There's almost like a period of mourning you're kind like looking, kind of looking back on your life and just seeing like, oh, That's why, that's why there's like the, a reason behind all these things that kinda went wrong or went sideways and you didn't didn't really know why at the time.

Jesse: So you're just kind of like going with the flow, but then looking back, you're just. it seems like my entire life would've been different if I had known this and maybe that's not true, but like, looking back, it's just so hard to just knowing that there's that. Yeah. Like you're learning, the more you learn about ADHD, the more you just see like, oh, it's in like everything in my Like all the decisions and actions I make. It's present in all of those places. And so not knowing about this huge piece of how my brain works for, for me, it was, you know, 35 years. Like that's a long time to live life and not know why your brain is doing things the way it's doing it Yeah.

Monica Lim: For, yeah, it was, it was, uh, it's huge. It's huge. And like, I, I almost kind of want to. become like an advocate of like, just, just helping people that, almost like give them clarity, like sooner. Like, you know, because I, I notice a lot of people, I have, you know, some clients that I notice those traits and I'm like, I'm not gonna tell them I could get diagnosed, but, uh, I think they're, they're like they're things so worthwhile to explore to even, even if you don't have ADHD, but to really understand how you operate.

Monica Lim: it would be a huge thing, especially with parenting, right? Like they say for, for people, with ADHD, their kids, like most likely may have also like ADHD traits and learning that I have ADHD noticing my kids have ADHD or like seeing those, those traits has really changed the way parent and, um, like have, have more compassion for my kids.

Monica Lim: Right. And,

Monica Lim: uh,

Jesse: Yeah. Cause it's hard. There's so many things with ADHD and. With just the kind of expectations of what you think parenting is gonna be like. I mean, those expectations are out the window for everybody, but particularly when they have ADHD, there's just so many unique struggles to kind of, because like their world, like with school and everything, like they have there's schedules, they have to follow there's work that needs to be done.

Jesse: And just sort of like navigating that. And there's also like the emotional dysregulation, which can. raising a kid really difficult. um, just sort of like learning how to handle that

Monica Lim: Yeah, I think part of me like, wow, it's, it's not like I suddenly have ADHD. I think what, like with school, with work, it was not so bad, but like with parenting, oh my god.

Monica Lim: I think I, I think I had this idea of myself, as you know, like, I want to be this like Montessori kind of mom, like homeschool, like I'm gonna, like, I want to teach my kids about like all these books that are awesome.

Monica Lim: And, and then like all of those things just, just really fell apart with me, like with parenting, like, you know, kids don't don't do what you think will do, or they they're kind of like, and, and dealing with that sort of like rejection, like feeling rejected as a mom and like, feeling like, crappy about like, so parenting and relationship was like the, the huge kind of, um, I think with ADHD, like I always feel that certain things

Monica Lim: are like the, the lucky things all your attention. then the, there are things that, just because of X, Y, Z just don't get attention. Right. I'm sure, like, there are lots of ADHD, moms who like, love parenting, like are really good and maybe that's their. There's zone of genius. Where like, that's where, like they they'll spend like eight hours, like researching recipes or like, you know, like looking for crafts and like all of these things.

Monica Lim: But for me, I realized that, oh my god, like parenting is really, really hard. It's like the, the thing that I procrastinate it's the thing that I just really don't want to do. And like, having that feeling made me really shameful. Like I'm like, oh, like, you know, I'm their mom and like, so I think parenting and like my relationship with parenting was like, a huge kind of like coming to accept myself.

Monica Lim: Like, you know, this is an area where it's just hard for me. Like I need to make this more interesting. I need to, uh, I need to make this more new. I need to make, so I could have like, Smaller wins, not having this, this really high expectations of parenting and that has really helped, but, like I'm so forgetful about all the important things about parenting, like, you know, like vaccination, like there, there's so many things that you need to keep track of that are really important.

Monica Lim: Like signing them up for school, signing them up for daycare, like signing up for this and. All of those things were like, ah, like I don't wanna do that. know, it's like taxes and like filing taxes, doing your insurance stuff. That was for me, like doing stuff for, parenting

Monica Lim: um,

Jesse: I I found, especially with like pandemic stuff, it just got all even more difficult. There was more paperwork, more schedules. You know, our, our kids were having to do school from home, which was just absolute chaos at our house. Um, cause I, I work from home too. Luckily I have like an office it's sort of, it's like built in the garage, so it's a little bit separated from the house, but it was still, I had to.

Jesse: You know, I was still like taking time from work to get inside, to help things happen because yeah, it was just chaos. And so there's so much with parenting and schooling in particular that requires all the stuff that people with ADHD really hate to do. just like all the schedules and the paperwork and all that, like busy work.

Jesse: And I, I find myself like all the time, just thinking. Like I'm problem solving in my head. Like, oh, the school should do it this way. This would be so much easier, there's actually do to make that happen.

Monica Lim: My god.

Jesse: The way it is.

Jesse: Yeah.

Monica Lim: Oh, I, can totally relate on, like, it's almost like you, you, you think of how to make the system better instead of doing like the 1% that matters. I'm

Jesse: yeah. Yep.

Monica Lim: and I mean, scheduling I'm. Like my work, I see myself as a project manager and I'm actually a pretty good project manager.

Monica Lim: Um, I love scheduling, like just figuring out like, what are some of the areas that could go wrong and like scaffolding those things and like, I'm so good at that. I just, just need to figure out a way to, to make parenting like, uh, a project. So it's, it's, it's almost like I need to find little things that I can do to project like my life with the kids.

Monica Lim: Uh, and, and I, and I have small wins. Like, I'll think of like, oh, how can I make this like less friction for the kids? And I'll come up with things that work and.

Jesse: Like

Monica Lim: They feel like a huge win for me as a parent. so it's, it's just really, like, you're not terrible Monica, like, you know, there are things that you need to work on, but there are all these other things that you're really great at.

Monica Lim: So I, I, I'm trying to practice more grace and self-compassion like, Monica, you know, you you're really good at these things. how can we make. This similar environment for like the kid, the things that are difficult for you, like parenting like meal planning is like so stressful. Oh my god. Like, um, just, just those decisions, like even like, okay, what should, where should we go eat out?

Monica Lim: Like that decision is really hard for me. And I think my, my husband, like he does not understand why that's hard. So I had to like, it's hard, please. decide like,

Monica Lim: Yeah,

Jesse: right. Yeah, I totally, I, I relate with that feeling. Um, I, I think sometimes I feel like the success that shows up when, for example, my daughter is like having a hard time getting, like, she has homework, she has a hard time getting going on it at all.

Jesse: I like, like my, I can jump to like creativity. Like how more novel or creative? And that's the sort of thing that like, you know, for us, like my. She struggles with that. She's really good with all the other stuff that I'm terrible at. But in that scenario, like that's when I can shine a little bit of like becoming like injecting creativity to help make homework happen.

Jesse: And it doesn't always work. And it's like, it's so frustrating when I think I have like a clever plan, that's gonna work. That's going to help motivate my daughter. And then it just like falls flat. It's like, oh, that did not work at all. But a lot of the time. I'm I think because I understand how her mind works, you know, a little bit more because I know that I understand the ADHD aspect of it.

Jesse: I feel like a lot of times that motivation will feel. Impossible to my wife or someone who's neurotypical. Like they can't understand how to get through, you know, it's the, like the wall of awful concept. Like how do you break through this wall when it's there? And I think I'm able to, at times, you know, lean into my strengths with ADHD and figure out creative solutions for stuff like that.

Jesse: Um, and that's, I, I try to, I try to remind myself of those moments when I fail at the like, oh, sorry I got the kid. I, you know, supposedly got the kids ready, but I forgot they're not wearing socks or whatever sort of thing like that. It's like, those things are gonna happen. And I just try to remind myself of the things that go well, because like that's, what's gonna motivate me to be better at the end of the day, leaning into and like appreciating my own strengths is like, that's what helps me be a better person and be a better father and all those sorts of things

Monica Lim: Um, yeah, same here. Like I, because I know how, like it works for me. I can see now. when they're blocked or like how to unblock them or like, if, especially with homework and like my daughter, like, I'll try to understand, they're like very small reasons why they don't want to do things. So for example, a very specific thing that happened this past weekend, she has to write like a diary, like a journal entry once a week.

Monica Lim: And. she had ran out of space in her notebook. So she has like a new notebook and she had to do, we used like an old notebook and she like was like, oh, like she's crying, she's crying. Like, oh, like I don't wanna do that. And it turned out to be because like the first few pages had like old stuff and she did not want to reveal that.

Monica Lim: And like I had no clue.

Jesse: Right.

Monica Lim: Like, her brother is like, oh, I think she doesn't want to show her like bad, like mistakes from like last year it was like, my god. And then like, so we taped that part from the beginning and, you know, like, and then she started doing it again. So like, it's, it's really the little things that you notice to, unblock them, to, to started.

Jesse: awesome. Well, I think that's a great time to wrap that up and move onto shiny objects. So shiny objects is a part of the where just sort of share some sort of shiny object that is, you know, grabbing our interest lately, something you wanna recommend and share with other people.

Jesse: So what is, what is your shiny.

Monica Lim: I'm really getting into like writing on. So just even like different notebooks, like different like hundred grams, like 80 grams, like different paper, like I'm getting obsessed with paper and pen. so just, just fountain pens or like different pens that like how it feels writing. Um, I'm really into kind of like tip, I don't know what that those are called, but like they're, they're Japanese.

Monica Lim: Brand that I really like is Le Pen by Marvin. and some Pentel pens that work really nice on, uh, like Hobonichi, you know, planners that I'm really into. So,

Jesse: as you were talking I was gonna ask if you use the Hobonichi cuz I I've bought several of them and I love them, but I also end up forgetting about 'em

Monica Lim: Oh, so I bought two, like I bought a daily one and a weekly one and the weekly one is, is awesome. Like it's, it's so compact, but you can, you can fit in so much stuff like, I'm amazed at all the things I can fit in there.

Jesse: Cool. And I'm gonna go ahead and share my shiny object real quick. Uh, so I feel like I'm, I've been hogging, shiny objects with video game related stuff, which just shows why the show is called ADHD nerds.

Jesse: Cuz I'm a bit of a nerd, but I have to talk about, I just got the steam deck, which is a video game console. It's basically. Like a whole PC, but like handheld. So it's kinda like a Switch, Nintendo Switch, but like a beefier one that can play pretty much any PC game. And it is amazing. It's quickly become like my favorite gaming console.

Jesse: and I kind of basically forgot about my Nintendo Switch. It's just sitting in the drawer now. but yeah, so if you. If you're a big gamer and you're not sure, I mean, there's a wait list for it. Like most things are these days, but I absolutely love, uh, my Steam Deck. It is a super fun console. They've just really made everything work so well on it.

Jesse: The screen's gorgeous. It feels great to use and yeah, highly recommend the steam deck. If you're for anyone that is a video game nerd that I, uh, like I am so awesome. Thank you so much for being here, Monica. This was great.

Monica Lim: Thank you Jesse. Thank you for having me.

Jesse: That's our show, thank you so much for listening. I especially want to thank our VIP patrons, charise Carlson, Dan Ott, Jessica Cherry DePaul, Luce Carter, Richard Stevens, and Todd Barnett. Your support helps me do this show and the other work I do, so thank you so much. If you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com/jessej that's J E S S E J. And you can always support the show for free, by leaving a review in Apple Podcasts or the podcast player of your choice. Full show notes and transcript are available at adhdnerds.com.